Do I really need a sub? [Archive] (2024)

prof_fate

09-04-2014, 05:09 PM

I do 90% weddings and last saturday the case with my sub amp took a dive to the driveway and well, the case is fine but the amp has issues. I've yet to take it apart, but it's making noises (fan), overheating and has no output...

My sub speaker is a 90lb monster. (18", 250w). It's never impressed me (bought my system used off a guy leaving the biz).

I don't take the sub to all venues and of course didn't use it saturday at the wedding.

My main speakers are old school mackie's with 15" speakers. Old school as in non powered and heavy.

I'm not ready to upgrade everything, but since I lack a sub it would be a place to start...but do I even need a sub?

Catch22

09-04-2014, 05:17 PM

JackStalk

09-04-2014, 05:18 PM

prof_fate

09-04-2014, 05:24 PM

How 'big' is big?
Are we talking room size or crowd size?
How much does the room (or tent if outside) matter, regarding use of a sub?
Does the floor matter (carpet vs hard, concreted ground level vs upper floors, etc?)

It's been my experience with bass amps that room size, distance to the speaker, etc make a huge difference since the wave lengths are so long.

So if you have a sub are there gigs you know it will be beneficial andhtose that won't benefit from it? What do you look for that determines that?

DJ Bobcat

09-04-2014, 05:24 PM

No, you don't NEED a sub. I almost never use mine.

I'm intrigued by your response. I bought two subs, but since I'm just starting up my little mobile DJ business, I have not used them yet. Can you please explain the circ*mstances under which you use your subs, and what is the criteria for NOT using them? What kind of subs do you have? Are there times when you use only one?

wapples

09-05-2014, 02:21 AM

bpmcalgary

09-05-2014, 08:25 AM

Short answer no...

Best Answer is yes! A lot of guys will tell you you don't, "if you have good speakers they will do". The technical answer is that speakers all though able where never meant to do the work a sub does. I run with my sub everytime for a few reasons.

1. Sound quality is better
2. Your speakers can be speakers (I turn the bass off in my speakers)
3. You will increase the overall longevity of your speakers

However, when it comes to the price tag its not always reasonable. Do what your budget lets you do!

Badger

09-05-2014, 09:03 AM

I definitely need a sub. I haven't properly dominated someone in a good long time and I'm getting itchy for it again.

http://www.djbadger.com/Visions/badger_sad.gif

EDIT: Whoops! Wrong forum... um... never mind.

Ausumm

09-05-2014, 09:41 AM

JackStalk

09-05-2014, 01:10 PM

I'm intrigued by your response. I bought two subs, but since I'm just starting up my little mobile DJ business, I have not used them yet. Can you please explain the circ*mstances under which you use your subs, and what is the criteria for NOT using them? What kind of subs do you have? Are there times when you use only one?

I have been DJing paid mobile events for almost five years now. I do a weekly bar gig in a 25x45 room that holds probably 50-75 people max. My SRM-450s easily cover that area and have enough bass (my 15 JBL EONs are bassier and sound great there as well). I have used my subs twice in the last two years, once during a Sweet 16 on a party boat and once for a large wedding hall (about 200 people maybe?) where I was elevated and wanted the extra bass reach.

I don't do a lot of weddings (only a few a year), but 90% of the time I don't feel the need to bring it. It comes down to personal preference, but the guys on here that do weddings with two subs are going to tell you that you have to have subs for a wedding which just isn't true. They want you to make the same equipment investment that they do because they "provide the best possible sound for their audience". I don't do high-profile expensive weddings, but I've never once felt that there wasn't enough bass on the dancefloor for people to dance. It's all subjective to exactly what events you're hosting, but IN GENERAL you do not NEED a subwoofer. I havent used mine since August 2013 and that was the large wedding I did with a 30x50ish dancefloor.

The same goes with photography. A year ago I wouldnt have known a picture from a $500 cropped sensor camera, or a $3000 full frame camera. If you ask the guys on the Nikon forums about using a $500 camera they'll laugh at you and insist you need the $2000 lenses and the $1500 full frame camera because there's no way you can shoot a wedding without the best equipment available. That's their opinion, I can shoot a wedding with a beginner DSLR the same way I can DJ a wedding with a beginner CDJ/Mixer combo and $800 worth of powered speakers and it'll sound great. YOU are the variable, you don't NEED a subwoofer for every mobile application ever.

EDIT: Plus it's heavy as f*ck and it doesn't fit in my little $600 subaru sedan. It make people's heads spin when I show up ready to DJ with that car. I usually need someone to help me lift it out of the car and/or wheel it up stairs etc. This way I can do the entire setup/teardown myself. I have a 25th anniversary coming up next weekend and you can bet I won't be using my sub. Most of the older tracks (pre-90s) that I'll be playing lack the bass frequencies that a subwoofer is designed to accentuate anyway. Subwoofers really shine when you're playing tracks from the last decade that are designed for a large system.

DJ Bobcat

09-05-2014, 01:29 PM

I have been DJing paid mobile events for almost five years now. I do a weekly bar gig in a 25x45 room that holds probably 50-75 people max. My SRM-450s easily cover that area and have enough bass (my 15 JBL EONs are bassier and sound great there as well). I have used my subs twice in the last two years, once during a Sweet 16 on a party boat and once for a large wedding hall (about 200 people maybe?) where I was elevated and wanted the extra bass reach.

I don't do a lot of weddings (only a few a year), but 90% of the time I don't feel the need to bring it. It comes down to personal preference, but the guys on here that do weddings with two subs are going to tell you that you have to have subs for a wedding which just isn't true. They want you to make the same equipment investment that they do because they "provide the best possible sound for their audience". I don't do high-profile expensive weddings, but I've never once felt that there wasn't enough bass on the dancefloor for people to dance. It's all subjective to exactly what events you're hosting, but IN GENERAL you do not NEED a subwoofer. I havent used mine since August 2013 and that was the large wedding I did with a 30x50ish dancefloor.

The same goes with photography. A year ago I wouldnt have known a picture from a $500 cropped sensor camera, or a $3000 full frame camera. If you ask the guys on the Nikon forums about using a $500 camera they'll laugh at you and insist you need the $2000 lenses and the $1500 full frame camera because there's no way you can shoot a wedding without the best equipment available. That's their opinion, I can shoot a wedding with a beginner DSLR the same way I can DJ a wedding with a beginner CDJ/Mixer combo and $800 worth of powered speakers and it'll sound great. YOU are the variable, you don't NEED a subwoofer for every mobile application ever.

Good information... thank you. As I said previously, I have 2 subs. I bought 15" subs just because of the weight issue. At my age (old), I did not want to have to lug 18" subs around. Like you, I also planned to use my 15" JBL's most of the time. However, I could also use just one sub if I wanted more bass. I guess it just takes experience in playing around with the combinations to know what works best under different circ*mstances (different size rooms). Not having to take the subs, or taking only one will help cut my setup time a little, but I want the best sound I can provide for the size of the venue. I also have two 12" speakers I plan to use at house parties and smaller gatherings, or I can use them with the subs, which I think sounds better than using the JBL's with the subs.

cooper

09-05-2014, 01:54 PM

prof_fate

09-05-2014, 03:29 PM

I wish my gear would fit in my subaru...use a chevy pickup and fill the bed and back seat. Leaving out the sub helps. But then just added more lights today..trade one for the other Iguess.
Ordered a dbx 231s and will evaluate things at the next gig.

I know a few musicians that have picked PAs and gear carefully..to the point it can all fit in the trunk of a jag.

DYM

09-05-2014, 04:06 PM

Hanginon

09-05-2014, 04:06 PM

I (as a guest) have been to too many weddings with lousy sound - I vowed I would never do it.

I always bring my subs. Go over and look at your 15" woofer and watch it move. With some bass it will move about 1/4" in and about 1/4" out, for a total of 1/2". A 1000 Hz note is only 12" long. Terms like "time-alignment", "ridged", and "decoupling" are mere advertising vodoo when your midrange is launched from something moving like that, and is one of the main reasons the 15" two-way starts to sound bad when the volume goes up. It is called distortion. It can be avoided by turning down the bass as you turn up the volume (who wants that?) OR separate the bass from the midrange - use a sub.

JackStalk

09-05-2014, 04:09 PM

I wish my gear would fit in my subaru...use a chevy pickup and fill the bed and back seat. Leaving out the sub helps. But then just added more lights today..trade one for the other Iguess.
Ordered a dbx 231s and will evaluate things at the next gig.

I know a few musicians that have picked PAs and gear carefully..to the point it can all fit in the trunk of a jag.

I fit an entire setup (speakers/decks/mixer/stands/etc but only two lights) in the two trunks and passenger seat of my porsche boxster once, but that's a whole different ballpark. If I picked equipment specifically to me compact, it would be much easier to tote around with space constraints.

bpmcalgary

09-05-2014, 04:11 PM

I (as a guest) have been to too many weddings with lousy sound - I vowed I would never do it.

I always bring my subs. Go over and look at your 15" woofer and watch it move. With some bass it will move about 1/4" in and about 1/4" out, for a total of 1/2". A 1000 Hz note is only 12" long. Terms like "time-alignment", "ridged", and "decoupling" are mere advertising vodoo when your midrange is launched from something moving like that, and is one of the main reasons the 15" two-way starts to sound bad when the volume goes up. It is called distortion. It can be avoided by turning down the bass as you turn up the volume (who wants that?) OR separate the bass from the midrange - use a sub.

TESTIFY!

Has nothing to do with me being a hater because I spent money. Its sound quality thats it. Speakers are meant to be speakers and subs are meant to be subs.

prof_fate

09-05-2014, 04:51 PM

KLH

09-05-2014, 05:22 PM

Using a sub is like playing stereo tracks in stereo... you should always do it.

Bass is where the fun is.

oldschooldj

09-05-2014, 06:15 PM

b.ill

09-05-2014, 07:15 PM

JackStalk

09-05-2014, 07:24 PM

If you want to provide the best overall sound balance for your customers listening pleasure, then a sub and properly crossed tops will be in your inventory. Then make sure you use the combo right, which is almost never with the tops on a pole over the sub, because very seldom do most venues have enough room to spread those subs with tops more than 40'.

If you take any kind of pride in what you're doing I can't imagine not using subs. The difference between with or without subs even at moderate volumes is night and day.

These are the same responses you'll get on the photography forum if you ask them if you can use beginner equipment to shoot professional gigs. Everybody swears by the expensive bulky stuff when you can 100% work without it. I may be wrong though, DJing only makes up almost 100% of my income and I live comfortably.

oldschooldj

09-05-2014, 08:26 PM

I guess I am not just a DJ, my main job is to provide the best sound experience I can to the customer. How much time or work it takes me to do that is subordinate to the end state, the sound quality. If it was all about the money I would buy me a couple powered Behringers and cheap controller, with a pirated library that would fit in a Yugo and call myself a mobile DJ.

It takes very little extra work to add a sub to your tops and improve and balance your sound, heck I used subs in the 1980's when everyone else was totting in home audio speakers, and people can tell the difference. You can get by with a much more affordable set of tops if you buy a decent sub.

Hanginon

09-05-2014, 08:27 PM

These are the same responses you'll get on the photography forum if you ask them if you can use beginner equipment to shoot professional gigs. Everybody swears by the expensive bulky stuff when you can 100% work without it. I may be wrong though, DJing only makes up almost 100% of my income and I live comfortably.

Threads on this topic (sub vs. no sub) have always quickly deteriorated into a Ford vs. Chevy argument, and this one has been no exception.

No, you don't need expensive equipment to DJ. Given enough antics behind the microphone, and enough booze in the audience, I could probably do a successful gig with a boom box. You could also dig a tunnel or cut down a tree with a Swiss Army knife, but why do that when there are better tools for the job?

Your photography analogy is an excellent one. 90% of the time you don't need that extra equipment, but then comes that 10% when you do. I don't want my audience looking at each other with a puzzled look on their face when I play Iggy Azalea's "Fancy" (the clean version) wondering "where's the bass"? Do you?

NathanDJ

09-05-2014, 09:28 PM

I personally don't use a sub for weddings, not because I wouldn't love to but because I don't really need it.

Most venues I do down under only cater for small numbers, 150 being the max. Why? Because most weddings here aren't big at all, unless you're a greek (which I don't do, not worth it IMO). Average size of weddings are 75pax.

I personally do love using subs and am not against them at all, but if you don't need them, why bring them?

A lot of the venues down here are either:

A) Outside (winery, park, etc.)
OR
B) Inside a hotel (sleeping guests upstairs)

so you can't even have the music that loud anyway, and the bass is a killer when it comes to noise complaints.

Though one hotel function room I did, they supplied the sound, I supplied DJ service & lighting. They had two B52 12" speakers and one 18" B52 sub (don't know model numbers sorry) and they informed me to really push it (I am known as a fairly loud DJ around here, provided I'm giving the opportunity) they wanted someone to see how far they could go, before in their professional opinion, would blow the system. Boy did I push it... but this thing wouldn't blow (which is probably a good thing). I personally fell in love, the crisp highs and the deep lows of that system had me wrapped around it's little finger... then 5 minutes later, we got noise complaints.

Hence why I don't use them, but given the opportunity, or bigger events, I will.

Corporates, birthday parties (within reason), are almost definite to bring a sub.

P.S. to everyone who's opinion is "if you don't have a sub, you're not a real DJ" or "how can you provide sound without a sub" etc.

All I have to say is:

So I presume you guys are the ones using CDJ2000-N's and DJM2000-N? Yep, okay..

sss18734

09-06-2014, 03:36 AM

I will admit that you don't need them. My multi-op does over 300 weddings a year, and about half of them don't get subs. A solid pair of 15" tops like the QSC KW152 or PRX 715 gets the job done, especially when your client isn't paying a premium.

Whenever I go out personally, I always bring a pair of JBL SRX718's off 3kW. That low end energy really helps keeps people on the floor, and it's only a single extra trip with the dolly. I can crank it loud and never have anyone complain about it sounding "harsh" because I have full range, clean, balanced sound with tons of headroom. It also LOOKS much cleaner when you can avoid using ugly tripods.

Granted I rarely go out for less than $1800 anymore, so I feel like my clients deserve it. If you're going out for $500 gigs, leaving the subs at home sounds incredibly appealing.

JackStalk

09-06-2014, 08:24 AM

So I presume you guys are the ones using CDJ2000-N's and DJM2000-N? Yep, okay..

Dude you have to have $2000 decks and a $2000 mixer because you want to provide the best sound experience for your audience and those are obviously the highest quality. If you use regular CDJ-2000s you aren't taking pride in your work.

Blackdevil77

09-06-2014, 09:07 AM

After reading through the thread, I guess the answer is…. it's up to you. You can get the job done without subs, but if you want to add subs and extend the frequency extension of your sound, then bring subs. I personally am a sound nut. My home audio system is a testament to that, but that's another story :) When ever I've gone to a gig, I've always brought at least one of my subs because it improves the sound. You hear more of what the artist intended when properly done. I didn't have to bring a sub to many of these gigs, but I did just because I wanted to. I wanted that certain sound. Only time I personally wouldn't use a sub is if I'm just providing background music.

So basically, it's up to you. Is it necessary, probably not. There really isn't right answer to this. It's what you and your client want.

cooper

09-06-2014, 09:35 AM

There's also the matter of aesthetics:

-No tripods if you pole mount the speakers on the subs
-Hiding the sub under the table or in a corner
-Ability to use smaller speakers (10" or even 8") rather than monstrous 15" tops

IMO, the volume argument doesn't hold true here. With a sub covering the bass frequencies, you're able to lower the volume and still get full sound.

A subwoofer doesn't simply go "thump thump thump"...it's there to cover frequencies that woofers can't, and as already mentioned, increases the lifespan of your tops. Recreating bass frequencies takes an enormous amount power and it adds stress to a 12" or 15" woofer.

So if your excuse is "I don't need one", you might want to rethink why.

oldschooldj

09-06-2014, 09:55 AM

+1 great info cooper!

The only item I can't support is tops mounted on poles above subs. Most venues wont give you the 40' you need to separate a pair of subs with tops mounted on them to give you good sound without cancellation and bass allies. I made this mistake for almost a year before an old sound guy at one of my weddings gave me a card and said give me a call next week.

He nicely and politely educated me on sound and recommended I purchase the Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook. I have learned a lot from him and the book since then.

Al Poulin

09-06-2014, 11:15 AM

If you have good clients that have no problem paying your asking price (and don't try to haggle) and you want to offer them the best sound for their event, a sub or subs almost always sounds better than stand mounted tops. I personally love the sound of the extended low frequencies a sub (or subs) provide. ***It should be said that older folks do NOT generally appreciate these low frequencies however, so I never bring subs for a 50th anniversary for example.****

OTOH, If you have many of those clients that are "on a budget" - as always seems to be the case when couples are looking for the entertainment portion of their wedding- and they try to get you as cheap as possible, then use whatever is easiest for you based on room size etc. A pair of 15s on stands will be adequate for many smaller events. I'm getting tired of people wanting the best of everything, but not wanting to pay for it. You will get what you pay for... And don't get me started on those do-it-yourself and save money IPod weddings or renting of Equipment and playing your own tunes to save from getting a pro to properly take care of your special day.

Al

prof_fate

09-06-2014, 11:34 AM

Asa photographer for 10 years I can tell you exactly where the 'value' in the expensive gear lies.
Under marginal conditions (low light, rain, etc) and hard use (banging it about). You might control the second but not the first.

A bride hires a pro to get pictures, not excuses. Good pictures or bad? There are measures but much of it is opinion.

A parallel to a sub might be off-camera flash. Can you shoot a wedding without it? Sure you can. Will the pictures be better if off camera lighting is used? Usually.

Now - can customers tell the difference? Most can't.
And it comes down more to YOUR MARKET- a bride with a $500 budget won't be looking at 'great pictures' so you don't need off camera lighting to be competitive in that market. A $4000 budget will have the bride shopping photogs that almost all will off camera flash.

Or maybe a sub (or not) is more comparable to zoom lenses vs prime lenses. Primes are better..but can the customer tell the difference? Full frame vs cropped camera? There is a difference but it takes a expert to know.

Having a sub or more lighting..or a better personality even, might help in referrals...or if the crowd goes to 3 weddings this summer and you are way better (or worse) than the other 2.

If you go by what customers ASK when shopping then let me ask you this - How often have you been asked about your gear? Does having a sub get you more work (to justify the investment it took)?

I"m not in the 'wedding age' group so I'm not hitting clubs, friends' weddings, etc to compare DJs...as a Photographer for 10 years I have perhaps more experience than a client.
I dont' see gear (as long as it's clean sounding and reliable) as making a difference..the personality of the DJ makes a bigger difference.

These are the same responses you'll get on the photography forum if you ask them if you can use beginner equipment to shoot professional gigs. Everybody swears by the expensive bulky stuff when you can 100% work without it. I may be wrong though, DJing only makes up almost 100% of my income and I live comfortably.

prof_fate

09-06-2014, 11:42 AM

I agree. But I have 15" tops...
If/when I buy new gear I'm getting something else, but I have what I have and dont' have the gigs to justify $1500+ on new gear.

Believe me, I'd LOVE smaller, lighter gear that I could fit in my car.

There's also the matter of aesthetics:

-No tripods if you pole mount the speakers on the subs
-Hiding the sub under the table or in a corner
-Ability to use smaller speakers (10" or even 8") rather than monstrous 15" tops

IMO, the volume argument doesn't hold true here. With a sub covering the bass frequencies, you're able to lower the volume and still get full sound.

A subwoofer doesn't simply go "thump thump thump"...it's there to cover frequencies that woofers can't, and as already mentioned, increases the lifespan of your tops. Recreating bass frequencies takes an enormous amount power and it adds stress to a 12" or 15" woofer.

So if your excuse is "I don't need one", you might want to rethink why.

robare99

09-06-2014, 01:34 PM

Where do you want to be. Where do you see your business growing? Newer gear means you could charge more. A sub could be a good start in that direction. Is this a hobby or your main source of income. Maybe it's time for a loan in order to grow your business to where you would like to be.

What's your current average gig? Could a new sub let you charge $100 more per gig? It would be paid off in half a year at your current rate of events...

prof_fate

09-06-2014, 01:53 PM

"newer gear means you could charge more"...worst thing I've heard. Trust me, with 10 years in photography a new camera, lens, light has never allowed me to charge more. The customer DOES NOT CARE about gear, only results.
Now if the new gear gives you new results THAT YOU CAN JUSTIFY TO THE CUSTOMER then great, you may be able to charge more.

"Newer gear means you HAVE to charge more" is is true, as you have to pay for it. You have lights now, right? Get a new laser or light and what happens? You raise prices $20? Hardly.

Brides expect you to play music. if they request songs you don't have and you buy them do you charge for that? You have more music this month than last month, did your prices go up?

DJing is an add on to the photography. Djs here charge $250 to $1800 for weddings. The best DJs get the top money - best is largely a personality thing, how they engage the crowd, etc.

ONe guy was pretty good - he brought 3 systems to a farm wedding (main tent reception, machine barn for co*cktail hour and hay barn for ceremony). Wirelss lav mic, handhelds. His light setup was huge - it was a multi level truss system, multiple motorized lasers, eon self powered speakers/sub (2 of the systems). Him and an associate, 2 laptops. Big production...$400. Included set up in the morning and being onsite form 1pm to midnite.

Another guy that is very good and uses older gear although he did dump the truss for LEDs on a tree a couple of years back, is $500 for a wedding. He's quite busy.
My next wedding (as a photog) the DJ is part time, $300 and no lights.

If I was full time and heavily into it, like I am the photography, then I'd aim for high end. I am investing and upgrading and considering a bigger marketing push to get more straight DJ work.

There are almost as many DJs around here as there are seconds in a song. From a business perspective its hard to justify a lot of investment in gear. At least my photo gear is long paid off - there just isn't enough business at a price point to justify becoming a photographer these days.

If I had 15 weddings booked at a grand each I'd buy a sub without much thought...but business isn't as good as I'd hoped it to be. (photo or dj)

cooper

09-06-2014, 03:16 PM

ONe guy was pretty good - he brought 3 systems to a farm wedding (main tent reception, machine barn for co*cktail hour and hay barn for ceremony). Wirelss lav mic, handhelds. His light setup was huge - it was a multi level truss system, multiple motorized lasers, eon self powered speakers/sub (2 of the systems). Him and an associate, 2 laptops. Big production...$400. Included set up in the morning and being onsite form 1pm to midnite.

I call BS.

robare99

09-06-2014, 03:48 PM

Evil Steve

09-06-2014, 05:18 PM

As many have pointed out, you have to keep perspective.
Sub or no-sub is one of the small, bullsh*t considerations.
Talent, rapport, skill, music selection, personality... These are vitally important things.
The deejay who can read the crowd, can select the right music, can tell when to speed things up or slow things down... That's the guy customers want.
I've seen deejays who use some of the crappiest equipment out there, absolutely ROCK an event. it sounded like crap and nobody cared.
I've seen deejays who use some of the finest equipment known to mankind, SUCK OUT LOUD. All that crappy music selection and smarmy mic work turned the crowd off completely.

If you have the right rig for the gig, it doesn't matter whether there's a sub included or not. Cheap, expensive, in-between, doesn't make a difference, as long as you can keep the crowd engaged.
All other things being equal, as a professional entertainment provider, I would prefer to use a compact system including small top boxes and a compact sub. That doesn't mean I couldn't make a go of it without a sub. I'd just need bigger full range speakers to compensate. Not preferred, but that's just me.

prof_fate

09-06-2014, 11:10 PM

Small country towns are different than urban areas. I saw the gear and he told me the price. I was still researching whether i wanted to get into the biz. I knew the bride, her sister, her parents - shot senior pics, family pics, 2 weddings for them. Whether he was lying or did them a favor I can't say. He said he had a day job, his ass't was retired and did it for something to do. He said his typical wedding was $150-200. His biggest competition was a guy in town with an ipod and home stereo that woudl do weddings for $100.

The guy I hire when I need help (like next month when I do the photography, photobooth and DJ) will do weddings for $200, proms and school dances for $150. Lights? Nope. Purchased music? Nope (teen daughter finds it online). Insurance? nope. Software is so out of date he has to reset/backdate his computer so it will run.

The perception of these folks is there is no 'cost' involved - so why not make a couple of hundred bucks on your day off? Do it half dozen times a year and it pays for that new gun for huntin' season so the wife don't get upset.

I call BS.

robare99

09-07-2014, 12:51 AM

Robdogg

09-07-2014, 09:53 AM

robare99

09-07-2014, 10:29 AM

JackStalk

09-07-2014, 11:00 AM

The perception of these folks is there is no 'cost' involved - so why not make a couple of hundred bucks on your day off? Do it half dozen times a year and it pays for that new gun for huntin' season so the wife don't get upset.

That's honestly my philosophy. I already have the equipment in my car so it's literally just my setup and play time that's getting paid for. I do this 5-6 days a week.

djeternal

09-07-2014, 05:10 PM

I like using a sub because the sound is better when my tops handle the highs and the sub handles the bass. Subs are made to handle bass - that's what they are designed for. Subs are good if you are playing music that has a lot of heavy low frequencies and also if people are dancing.

The photography analogy is not accurate in my opinion. I think a more accurate analogy is to compare something that is made for a one specific purpose to something that is not made for one purpose. For example if you hire a DJ to only DJ and an MC to focus on just MC'ing you probably will get better results than if you hire a DJ who also has to MC and do other things. There's a saying that goes "Jack of all trades, master of none." If your tops have to handles highs and lows then the overall sound won't be as good as having tops that just handle highs and subs that only handle lows.

At the end of the day you should get feedback from your clients/customers. If they are happy with the sound then you're doing fine.

prof_fate

09-08-2014, 01:19 PM

As a hobby biz or somethign that may be true. But if you're running it as a business then it's not.
You bought the gear, it will one day need replaced and upgraded. Things break, get lost, wear out.
You need music.
You should have insurance.
There are advertising costs.
There is overhead time - the time spent marketing, meeting clients, etc. If I hired you to help me you'd want paid for that time just as much as the time driving/setup/performing, right?
You run to the store to get that new cable - hour of time and gas...that needs paid for too.

So far in my first year in business, besides the startup costs: added EQ, broke an amp, had a light die, added new lights (upgrade) (takes time to shop and find the gear you want, then install it, learn it, program it, etc), insurance, wedj 'membership', time spent on website, pricing, contract. Talked with brides via email, on the phone and in person (not all booked). Working on a video for the website.

My DJ software has a new version...spend on it or not? (has a few cool features but some have been removed...time to play with the trial and decide).
I spend $10-15 on music for each wedding. This investment should slow down...or maybe not.
Some gigs I bring an assistant.
I've previewed 2 venues - so time/gas to do that.

That's honestly my philosophy. I already have the equipment in my car so it's literally just my setup and play time that's getting paid for. I do this 5-6 days a week.

JackStalk

09-08-2014, 03:55 PM

prof_fate

09-08-2014, 04:28 PM

Lots of things factor into it.
If you do it for fun and the money is secondary then A) the money isn't the thing and B) will it be fun or 'work' is probably a big factor.
Once you have 'enough' gigs to cover costs and make your nut then you can take more work cheap, charities, etc as you see fit, or decline it and have the day off.

I know a few DJs in each 'category' - full time, one is good and stays cheap, and busy. Another is always raising prices but is a gear slu*t - gotta have latest, greatest speakers and mixer and lights, multiple systems (he rents them out as second/backup for other DJs).

Part timers are all over the place in quality and price. My marketing costs are pretty low, my gear cost low - everything I have cost me less than one bose L1 1S. While I enjoy it it is a business, it's goal is to produce income.

My photography business is probably more in the place your dj bis is. Lots of good gear, all paid off, repeat biz and connections bring in most of the business.

$200 in four hours is great. I know my last wedding had the phone call (10 min) sales meeting (hour), a phone call or two (20 min), venue visit (hour), final meeting (1/2 hr) and payment, prep time (45 min), load up (20), travel (20 each way), setup (45 min), work 5 hours, tear down (45), drive (20), unload(10) . A bit over 10 hours directly attributed to this wedding.
Figure there's planning, marketing, bridal shows, calls that don't book, meets that don't, bookkeeping, gear upkeep, etc there's hours more spent on the biz. Plus the costs of music, insurance, gas, gear (still using lights from 25 years ago? Everyone I know has LEDs less than 5 or 6 years old. Is your laptop more than 5 years old?).

So to get $600 for '5 hours work' or $200 for 4 hours is misleading, in the big picture. But generall yes, I agree is better to work for $200 than to watch TV for the evening and make nothing.

JackStalk

09-08-2014, 05:51 PM

I don't use a laptop, actually just CDJ-2000s (Ive got a few of them). As far as photography is concerned, I treat it with the same mantra I use for DJing. I have dropped probably over $8000 into my four bodies and various lenses with accessories, and have made back less than 1/8 of just the equipment since I started nine months ago. Unlike DJing, it's a hobby to me that happens to make me money. With DJing 95% of the stuff I do isn't weddings, and I have a such a streamlined approach with my gear and music and everything that it's all business with little time I have to spend on prep/communication/etc.

Back on topic, I actually just shot some pictures at a wedding this past week and guess what, the DJ didn't have a subwoofer. He was rocking a light bar truss with dual RCF 425s and a Pioneer DDJ SX controller thing and the bass was fine. It was probably about 100 people at the wedding, and at one time the dance floor was packed with probably close to 40 people with no reduction in bass from those two tops. I spoke with the guy a little bit about his setup and told him about our heated ongoing discussion and he just chuckled and said "You really don't need subs dude, I left them out in the truck"

DJ Nada

09-08-2014, 09:38 PM

No, you don't need a sub, just half-ass the gig. The client is too dumb to notice the difference anyway, and I'm a weakling that doesn't like lifting heavy things.

That's what you guys sound like to me.

prof_fate

09-09-2014, 08:19 AM

come put my tops on the stands - sorry, not weak. (65lb ea)

You want to buy gear and are using 'owe it to the customer' as an excuse.

Are your speakers 'the best'? How do you know? I'm sure there is debate on that. Bose I'm sure says their speakers are the best, and I know a few DJs that use them...they dno't cite sound quality as the main feature though..they say easy to carry and setup.

Lots of DJs buy 10" tops with sub basses instead of 15" and 18" subs...I guess theyr'e doing a disservice to their customers too? i mean, 10's can possibly sound as good as 15s.

customers DO NOT CARE. W/ my photography people don't ask what gear I use, they don't care. they care about results. If I can deliver the results with an iPhone than that's all I need.

GENERALLY better gear (photo or dj) leads to better results and a better 'product' and that lets you charge more and go after higher end customers (who often appreciate what we do or at least expect more when they pay more).

there is always the chicken or egg thing though. If I went out and dropped $10k on gear and raised my prices to $1500 a wedding would I be 'richer' than I am now (with $2kish in gear and $600 wedding price)? Or would I be working to make money to make bose or pioneer rich?

If you don't charge as much as you can you're doing YOURSELF a disservice, aren't you?

JackStalk

09-09-2014, 11:12 AM

customers DO NOT CARE. W/ my photography people don't ask what gear I use, they don't care. they care about results. If I can deliver the results with an iPhone than that's all I need.

GENERALLY better gear (photo or dj) leads to better results and a better 'product' and that lets you charge more and go after higher end customers (who often appreciate what we do or at least expect more when they pay more).

This x 1000. Not one person has ever asked me anything about what equipment I use (except "do you have lights?" "How much music do you have" "Can you play a CD or ipod?" "Is your camera full frame? "Can you print a wedding album?")

djpeter1

09-09-2014, 11:32 AM

This x 1000. Not one person has ever asked me anything about what equipment I use (except "do you have lights?" "How much music do you have" "Can you play a CD or ipod?" "Is your camera full frame? "Can you print a wedding album?")

oh man..u said it, so true. I never thought about it. I exactly get asked the same questions but never equipment. At the end of the day if you make them dance and give them good time. bingo. Is that possible without sub? yeah. Are there situations where sub can help? hell yeah. i have multiple yorkville subs but 9/10 i don't use cause the situation is so. I could have but the customer don't give damn..as it is i am losing gigs to my competition because he going real low, forget adding more money just because i think sub will give him kickass party.

DJ Nada

09-13-2014, 06:27 PM

People don't ask about equipment because they expect YOU, the PROFESSIONAL, to have the appropriate equipment to do the job.

Do you ask your car mechanic what kind of tools he uses? No. Do you care? No. Does that mean you won't care when his cheap wrench strips your oil pan bolt? Ah, now you see my point?

JackStalk

09-13-2014, 06:52 PM

People don't ask about equipment because they expect YOU, the PROFESSIONAL, to have the appropriate equipment to do the job.

Do you ask your car mechanic what kind of tools he uses? No. Do you care? No. Does that mean you won't care when his cheap wrench strips your oil pan bolt? Ah, now you see my point?

It's more like the mechanic using a lift versus not using a lift. Can you work on a car without a lift? Sure, but it's much better in many ways to use a lift. Regardless the job will get done well and you won't notice the difference.

DJ Troy

10-08-2014, 01:39 AM

I DJ'd for 20 years starting in '86 (with rented, handmade and home speakers initially) and in 2006-7, when my other business took off and didn't leave me time to DJ, I sold off my DJ gear, which at the time included an amp rack and passive tops and subs. Even though I did a lot of custom wiring work to make my old system flexible, it was still limited in its flexibility.

I just started DJing again this year, after a 7 year hiatus. This time around, I went with powered speakers and subs (JBL Eon 515xls and 518 subs). While I almost always take a sub, I only take BOTH subs to certain gigs where I'll be needing a lot of low end volume. The advantage of my setup is that a single sub has crossovers for TWO channels, so I can use a pair of tops in stereo with just one sub. Both channels go to the sub first, and it crosses over at 100Hz, so the tops only get mid-bass and up, while the sub gets the low end. For a bigger gig, I can use both subs, and for a small/cheap/quick gig, I can use just the tops full-range, or even just a single top. This allows me to mix and match the gear to the needs of the gig (and the price range I'm getting paid).

A sub is definitely noticed, but most people don't know WHY the music sounds really great - they just know that it does. Without a sub, you definitely miss that low end, even if most people don't know WHY the music sounds a bit thin. So I bring a sub to most gigs (unless it's super-cheap or super-quick), and I get lots of compliments on the "great sound." I've only been asked by one customer what kind of speakers I use, and all he needed to hear was "JBL" (a name he recognized and sounded professional, I'd bet) and he was happy. Most customers just ASSUME that you're the professional and that you've got quality gear. They don't really care what kind of gear you use, but they do expect it to sound great if they're paying you more than a couple hundred bucks.

A quick little story, though: when I started DJing again at the beginning of the year, I didn't have speakers - I wasn't sure DJing would still "work" and I didn't have the cash to just buy some to find out. I advertised on Craigslist and was up-front that my gear (home bookshelf speakers and an AV receiver for an amp) was only good enough for backyard parties and such, and that I'd work cheap. My first gig ended up being for 150 people in a big wedding tent (it was a retirement party). It was a last-minute booking and I didn't get many details of the event beforehand, and my little rig was nowhere near what this room needed. I was VERY embarrassed! But... I did my best anyway, and played great music that they loved and kept them dancing until the venue shut us down for the night, and I've already had 2 bookings from people who saw me at that event. Those people didn't care that my speakers and amp totally sucked (compared to pro gear); they liked ME and how I worked the crowd with the music, and that was enough to get repeat bookings. Of course, now I have actual professional gear...

djeternal

10-29-2014, 03:18 PM

I think some people who are against using a sub don't want to use it because of the weight. I know how it is - who wants to carry a big ol sub if you don't have to. I used a car when I was starting out and I didn't want to bring a sub if I didn't have to. Now that I use subs regularly it's hard to go back. If you feel that subs are too big or heavy you should really take a look at many of the new powered subs out there. EV, Yamaha, JBL, and other companies have some light-weight subs that sound awesome. If there's a DJ store near you check it out. Have them demo it for you.

As I said before you don't "need" a sub but everything sounds better with a sub. Good clubs have good sound and they use subs.